The easiest conversations in the bar of the early 21st century -- known to golfers as the 19th hole -- typically involve a debate about superiority.
Is Brett Favre the greatest quarterback? Is Whistling Straits the best golf course in Wisconsin, or has Erin Hills surpassed it? Are the new TaylorMade balls better than Titleist's Pro V1s?
Here's another topic to discuss: Create the best possible standard 18-hole layout using holes on golf courses in Dane County.
We did it 10 years ago when there were 18 courses with 18 holes in the county. Naturally, we took the best hole from each course and called it the Great Dane 18.
We've updated the Great Dane 18, and this time it was a much harder task. First, there are more than 18 courses to choose from because of impressive additions such as the Bridges, the Oaks and the Legend at Bergamont. Second, I asked for help selecting the holes this time around and, as expected, got a host of different opinions.
For instance, former Madison city champ Mark Disrud convinced me that the 18th hole at Hawks Landing would make a great finishing hole. My golfing buddy, Doug Wahl, gave his thumbs up to using the 16th hole on the Yahara Hills East Course. And Vitense Golfland teaching pro Derek Schnarr guided me away from using Blackhawk Country Club's par-4 10th and toward using Blackhawk's par-5 seventh.
But most of the holes on this list followed a heavy discussion over burgers, Diet Cokes and laughter at Red Robin restaurant with Rob O'Loughlin -- the president of Laser Link Golf and the greatest salesman I've ever met -- and three of his employees: Dan Steiner, Troy Bilderback and Tim McClure.
O'Loughlin had good reason to be involved. He was my partner when we played the updated Great Dane 18 holes in one day last week. He figured that if he were going to spend an entire day traversing the county playing golf with a hacker of a sports writer who hasn't hit a good wedge shot since 1971, they had better be good holes.
Thus, O'Loughlin's intense lobbying -- "I won't play that hole," he simply said between bites of his sandwich -- got the evil, par-4 17th hole at Blackhawk Country Club dropped off the list. I agreed that the hole is more than borderline unfair because of its severe slope that sends thousands of balls hurtling out of bounds each summer.
Plus, the Great Dane 18 isn't a list of the most difficult holes in the county. Blackhawk's par-5 seventh is much fairer, better looking and best defines what this list -- and good golf -- is all about. All you have to do to par the hole is hit three straight shots to reach the green, and then get the ball in the hole with two putts.
Of course, as any golfer knows, that's easier said than done.
I used the same argument to add the par-4 10th hole at University Ridge to the list instead of the Ridge's trickier par-4 fourth hole, which was part of the '98 Great Dane 18. The 10th is better for a myriad of reasons, including aesthetics.
O'Loughlin also successfully lobbied to include Maple Bluff Country Club's par-3 11th instead of its more famous and prettier par-3 sixth hole. O'Loughlin, who is a member at Maple Bluff, took heat from some fellow members after they learned what he had proposed. But he was extremely convincing as he explained how the 11th is one of the state's most underrated holes. It's proof that a par 3 doesn't need water to make it a tough hole to par.
The Oaks' par-4 14th hole made the list partly because of lobbying by Steiner and Bilderback. It's an unusual and difficult hole that is easily the course's most memorable hole.
Another item up for debate was my choice to include Odana Hills' par-4 16th hole instead of the par-4 third hole. The 16th might not be as long as the third, but it has five times more character. The 16th has an old hickory tree that eats balls. The third has Beltline noise.
Once we completed the list, it took O'Loughlin and me 11 hours and 45 minutes to tromp around the county and play all 18 holes on what turned out to be an absolutely majestic day for golf. We drove more than 150 miles with virtually no problems -- other than losing my car keys (just once) and nearly hitting an old, scruffy dog that walked right in front of the car as we were pulling out of Maple Bluff.
We got to visit with a host of nice people who bent over backward to make sure we completed our task. Virtually every course we played was in outstanding condition, too.
But not everybody was nice to us. At Yahara Hills, we had to dodge the stares of a few angry men who had the personality of that old, scruffy dog.
Since we were in such a hurry all day, our only meals came via a trip through a McDonald's drive-through and a quick stop for cookies and soda at a PDQ in Fitchburg. That created another topic for discussion: What's worse for you to eat: a Big Mac, or a hot dog from Odana Hills?
O'Loughlin deserves great praise for, um, gutting it out and showing the patience to complete the time-consuming and sometimes frustrating task of playing 18 tough holes from the back tees on 15 different golf courses in one day. He also needs to be praised for bringing his trademark Laser Link yardage devices with him so we could have accurate measurements for every shot.
The Great Dane 18 measures 7,498 yards and plays to a par 72, and O'Loughlin certainly was on his game the entire time while shooting a dazzling 79. If ever a score deserved to be listed in the newspaper among the day's best, it was that one.
I shot an 82 despite the fact I played the entire 18 holes without my glasses that I use for golfing. I also didn't hit a single wedge shot into the water. Both of those are minor miracles.
The Great Dane 18 is not the definitive list of the best holes in the county. If that were the case, some courses such as Maple Bluff and the vastly improved University Ridge might have four or five holes on the list while far more would have none. There also might be more par 3s than par 4s and par 5s.
Maybe you agree with me on this list. More than likely, you don't. After all, Brett Favre isn't among my top five all-time best quarterbacks. I think Whistling Straits is the best course in Wisconsin, but Lawsonia's Links Course is my favorite. And I'll take an Odana dog over a Big Mac every day of the week.
Here's a rundown of the holes and how we played them.
1. Maple Bluff Country Club, No. 2, 448 yards, par 4
We started on what I believe is one of the best holes in the state, let alone the area. What's interesting to note is that the hole hasn't changed through many of the course's redesigns. You just don't mess with perfection. It's tight in a bunch of evil ways. A sliced shot will almost always go out of bounds. A hook will go into trees. Hit it too long and you'll find a trap. So it forces golfers to think, which is always dangerous. Golfers can't relax when they reach the green because it has just enough subtle breaks to force you to guess when you stand over that putt.
We both bogeyed the hole after neither of us reached the green with our approach shots. We hit OK drives but not long enough to hit a short iron to the green. Being forced to use hybrid clubs -- that nifty innovation that makes the ball so easy to get airborne, and go a long ways -- or long irons to a narrow green with an out-of-bounds area just a few feet right of it creates a frightful situation. A bogey isn't a bad score here.
2. Maple Bluff Country Club, No. 11, 195 yards, par 3
This is perhaps our most controversial pick. The 11th was chosen after a long conversation with O'Loughlin, and a knowledgeable critic who rates courses around the world for Golfweek magazine.
"I think 11 is the best overall hole on our entire golf course," O'Loughlin said. "And I would make this argument: In my considerable travels, I think you can take No. 11 here and put it on any golf course I've played, and they have to throw away one of their par 3s. In other words, if you took away the worst par 3 at Augusta and put this one in there, it would make the course better."
No. 11 has a big green but a very narrow landing area and a gaping trap on the front left. We played it from the 205-yard plate on the back tee, so it's longer than the listed yardage. The green is sneaky, too, featuring a hump that creates many three-putts.
Making matters difficult for us here was the appearance of a Capital Times photographer, who couldn't help but mess up our focus as he snapped pictures of us to accompany this article. He was just doing his job while we played a difficult hole. O'Loughlin was up to the task as he knocked a 7-wood on the green to about 20 feet and two-putted for par. After hitting a fat 4-iron to just short of the left greenside bunker, I got "up and down" (up onto the green in one shot, and down into the hole in one putt) on the elevated green for par. Anybody who has ever played golf with me and seen me continuously commit golf suicide with a sand wedge will not believe that. But it's true.
3. The Bridges, No. 11, 534 yards, par 5
Bridges pro Jim Thomas wasn't thrilled we chose this dogleg right because it's the lowest on a course that, like most courses in the area, has battled water problems over the past year. Even though there are a few free-drop areas to the left of the fairway near the green, where golfers can place their balls after shots hit into standing water, this hole was fine. And it can be a bear.
Long hitters who don't cut their tee shots will find a trap through the fairway. And anybody who cuts it too much off the tee will find the marsh. A second shot must traverse the narrowest part of the hole, so a hybrid or iron should be used if you can't reach the green. O'Loughlin did just that and made a two-putt par. I hit a 3-wood for my second shot and trickled it into the left rough and got a free drop. I reached the green with a wedge and also had a two-putt par. Now we were humming.
4. Cherokee Country Club, No. 10, 424 yards, par4
It was great to find longtime director of golf Larry Tiziani in the pro shop when we arrived. Tiziani looks marvelous after recovering from a heart attack suffered a year ago, and last week claimed his seventh career Wisconsin Professional Golfers Association state senior championship, earning a trip to the Senior PGA Professional national championship in October in California. Tiziani sent us on our way to a hole where the dew was still heavy on the grass. Another dogleg right, but this one changed considerably since we played it for the 1998 Great Dane 18: The fairway was raised and a trap added to the right about 260 yards out. It certainly didn't get any easier. We both hit perfect drives about 240 yards out and then both barely missed the green with our hybrid approaches. We both hit good chip shots but missed short putts and made bogey. Good holes don't give up pars easily if you make even the smallest mistakes. This hole exemplifies that.
5. Bishops Bay Country Club, No. 17, 217 yards, par 3
Any tee shots with the slightest fade will drop into the lake. Any bailouts to the left will find mounds. This is a brutal hole for those of us who don't hit 300-yard tee shots or 220-yard 7 irons. I hit a hybrid with a 19-degree angle face to the front fringe. O'Loughlin was just left of me after hitting 3 wood. We were thrilled after both of us got up and down for par.
6. The Meadows of Sixmile Creek, No. 2, 596 yards, par 5
This hole has a beautiful double dogleg with water waiting for sliced tee shots and hooked approach shots to the green. It best exemplifies the Meadows' design, which offers great risk-and-reward features on just about every hole. Our drives reached the fairway. So did our second shots, and that set us up for two easy approaches. We both two-putted for par.
7. The Oaks, No.14, 435 yards, par 4
We got a lot of feedback from golfers about this hole because of its unique character. It requires a blind drive over a marsh, and then a blind approach over another marsh. It was probably our least favorite hole of the day, even though we both figured out how to par it. Once again, straight tee shots set us up for approach shots we could handle.
As we drove away, O'Loughlin opined on why we were playing so well. Although it was difficult to play a hole only about once every 25 minutes or so, O'Loughlin said that made it easier to focus.
"That's why you never see (PGA) Tour players in a hurry," said O'Loughlin.
8. Yahara Hills East Course, No. 16, 414 yards, par 4
After we arrived, we were told we'd have to wriggle in between groups of MARGA golfers if we hoped to play the hole. Yikes. MARGA stands for Madison Area Retiree Golf Association. I've also heard it referred to as the Mean And Rotten Golfers Association. Regrettably, the golfers we ran into fit under the latter description.
We made the long drive out to the hole and found a foursome of grumpy old guys standing on the women's (oops, I mean front) tees waiting to hit their drives. We smiled and waved as we headed toward the back tees. None of them smiled back. Or waved. They just glared at us.
We waited for them to hit their tee shots and approaches before we teed off. Neither one of us found the fairway with our tee shots -- a testament to the nature of this hole, which has grown vastly tighter as Yahara's trees have matured. It was one of just two holes we played all day where neither one of us reached the fairway off the tee.
My tee shot landed behind a large cedar, which required me to hit a major cut to reach the green with my 6-iron. While O'Loughlin made a two-putt par, my approach flew over the green, and I failed to get up and down and made bogey.
But before either one of us hit our approaches, two more MARGA golfers drove up to us in their cart. They were from the group we had sneaked ahead of to play the hole. They glared at me, and then one of them growled and asked me if I was lost. "No sir," I said politely. "This is the East 16th."
They continued to glare, and I wasn't about to tell them what we were doing out there. I told them we were only playing the 16th and then we'd leave. They didn't respond. They just continued to glare at me before turning their cart around and heading back to the tee.
O'Loughlin couldn't understand why anybody could be unhappy while playing a golf course on a beautiful summer day. "If you were in the hospital, that would be one thing to be unhappy about," he said. "But if you're an old guy with nothing to do all day long -- retired, on a perfect day, playing golf -- how can anybody be unhappy with that?"
9. Stoughton Country Club, No. 9, 395 yards, par 4
We found nothing but smiles from the folks at this course, which has made a wonderful recovery from the tornado that sliced through it three years ago. It didn't look like it affected this special hole, which is an underrated piece of terror that played as tough as ever.
O'Loughlin had never played this tight dogleg left and was instantly fascinated by it. Tee shots must traverse traps and trees that guard the right side of a razor-thin fairway that slopes gently to the left. Trees also guard the left side, so there isn't much room to try to cut the corner. Once again, neither one of us found the fairway off the tee, and we were forced to hit our approaches from the right rough.
I hit a 3-wood off the tee and didn't hit it crisply, so I had 185 yards left to an elevated green guarded by a pond in front of it. I hit a 23-degree hybrid hard and straight, but it was a line drive, which meant it was doomed. It found a watery grave, and I ended up making double bogey, which I believe is my average score on that hole over the years.
O'Loughlin hit a tremendous approach shot to the green with a hybrid and negotiated two putts on the sloping green to make a good par and finish with a 38 on the first 9 holes of the day. Asked what he thought of the hole, O'Loughlin shook his head and said, "Wow."
10. The Legend at Bergamont, No. 13, 428 yards, par 4
I believe this hole, the second at Maple Bluff and the 10th at University Ridge are the three greatest holes on this list. Stand on the tee here, and you see a perfect golf hole that architect and two-time U.S. Open champ Andy North of Madison considers one of the best he has ever designed. It's pure Wisconsin, as evidenced by a barn in the background. The fairway is generous, but the green is elevated and guarded by a deep trap that eats any approach that isn't struck perfectly. The green has a subtle slope that is easy to overlook, so three-putts are the norm. We both hit perfect drives to the middle of the fairway, and both made bogey. 'Nuff said.
11. The Legend at Bergamont, No. 17, 229 yards, par 3
This hole is as close as you'll get to a copy of the famous island green 17th at the TPC at Sawgrass. All the tees are very similar; so is the lake, which guards the front, right side and back of the green. The biggest difference is that North created a bailout area to the left and made the green a peninsula.
O'Loughlin hit his 3-wood tee shot into the water. Before he took his drop and hit his shot onto the green and made double bogey, he hit two more into the water in his quest to reach the green from the back tees. I got lucky and hit a 3-wood to the left fringe. I promptly three-putted for bogey.
12. Nakoma Golf Club, No. 10, 458 yards, par 4
North redesigned this hole several years ago and made it really vicious. It's long, it's out of bounds all along the left side, and there's water along the right side, including a little brook that drowns the gentlest of fades. Neither of us could reach the green with our second shots, but at least they stayed dry. We each had a chance to save par, but missed the putt.
13. Odana Hills, No. 16, 427 yards, par 4
We played Odana's par-4 third hole in 1998, but went with the 16th simply because it has much more character. That includes an old hickory tree that has probably knocked down more than 500,000 drives in its lifetime. There are more trees now on both sides of the fairway and anything hooked badly left will go out of bounds. It slopes subtly uphill so it requires an extra club for your approach shot. O'Loughlin hit one of his best drives of the day and then hit a solid approach with a 6-iron to make par. I made bogey because I missed the green with my approach after my tee shot landed under the 150-yard bush.
14. Blackhawk Country Club, No. 7, 578 yards, par 5
No hole on this list looked tighter from the tee than this one. What's amazing about this hole is that it looks even tighter standing in the fairway before hitting your second shot. So you just have to keep your head still, swing easy and trust your swing. O'Loughlin played it the right way, reaching the green in three shots and just missing a 10-foot birdie putt. I got up and down from 6 feet for par, thanks to a green that was in its usual silky-smooth condition.
15. Pleasant View Lake Course, No. 9, 400 yards, par 4
This is a repeat hole from 1998. Some might feel others on the redesigned course deserve mention, too. Pleasant View was in its usual chaotic state when we arrived. I don't believe too many courses get more play than this one, and we arrived when it was at its busiest, with leagues running full blast on 18 of its 27 holes. So when I said we needed to play one hole, the immediate answer from pro shop manager Tom Varnes was a firm "no."
It was a funny conversation because we both wanted the same thing, but we couldn't communicate it properly. I told Tom I wanted to play the old 18th hole, which is on the Lake Course. Tom told us he wanted us to play any hole on the Lake Course, which wasn't as busy as the other nines. "Do you like holes with ponds? We've got those out there. Those are great holes," Tom said as he tried to get rid of us.
We finally got things smoothed out, drove to the tee box and nobody was near us. O'Loughlin and I liked this hole because it traverses four levels to a narrow green. We both made par, which put smiles on our faces as we headed to a difficult trio of finishing holes. But first we had to locate my car keys, which O'Loughlin eventually found in the pro shop. Somebody had found them on the ground near the carts. Not the first time that has happened.
16. University Ridge, No. 10, 483 yards, par 4
Throughout the day we were helped tremendously by most of the folks who were working at their respective courses. Most were glad to toss us a cart key and send us off on our way to complete our task. University Ridge was no exception. In fact, the good folks there went above and beyond the call of duty to make sure we could play.
There was a sizable Arthritis Foundation outing taking place when we arrived, so general manager Mike Gaspard played traffic cop and escorted us to our tee boxes and politely explained our situation to the groups we were delaying. Unlike the Yahara grumps, everybody here smiled, waved and wished us good luck.
We needed it at the 10th, which grew 27 yards longer in the recent $3.1 million overhaul of the course thanks to a new tee box. It's the prettiest hole in the county, and it might be the best one, too. The fairway is generous, but it doesn't feel that way from the tee because of the woods that surround the hole. It's also uphill and takes a whack of around 250 yards to reach the fairway.
I hit one of my best drives of the day and was just off the fairway, in the left rough about 200 yards from the green. I hit my 23-degree hybrid to 20 feet above the hole, which was cut in the middle of the green. My birdie putt drifted right so I settled for par. O'Loughlin made bogey.
Gaspard smiled after he watched my approach shot settle on the green. He mentioned that the creation of hybrids has made the game better, and we couldn't have agreed with him more. O'Loughlin and I aren't long hitters, but we played all day from the back tee boxes and were hanging in there, making a bunch of pars. It was all because of hybrids, which I think we hit on almost every hole.
17. University Ridge, No.17, 250 yards, par 3
This hole has become a monster by lengthening it about 30 yards. It is the poster child for what the Ridge has become with its new tee boxes. The place has a nasty bite to it and is arguably the most improved golf course in the state.
On this hole, all you have to do is traverse water for the entire length of the hole and reach a narrow green with a tee shot that requires a 3-wood or hybrid for most of us. It was the most difficult par 3 we played all day.
O'Loughlin hit his 3-wood, and it was the best shot of the day by either of us. It was a frozen rope that nestled about 10 feet left of the hole. I was positive he'd make birdie, but his putt also drifted right, and he settled for an outstanding par. My 19-degree hybrid shot carried the water and finished just short of the green. I hit a weak chip and two-putted for bogey.
18. Hawks Landing, No. 18, 587 yards, par 5
This slight dogleg right has all the right touches to make it a great finishing hole. You aim at the old silo off the tee, stay just to the right of the left fairway bunker for your second shot, and then stem the desire to get cocky on your approach and aim at the hole if it's on the right side of the green. Miss your approach to the right of the green, and you'll lose a ball and make double bogey or worse.
O'Loughlin and I saved some of our best shots for last. We both hit great drives and second shots, and had short irons to the green. Both of us were inside 10 feet for birdie.
Of course, we both promptly missed the putts and settled for par to end the round.
Afterward, O'Loughlin noted that every place we played Monday was busy, whether it was with general play or outings. "Everybody has some activity, and that's encouraging," he said.
That shouldn't be a surprise, considering all the good golf courses that can be found in Dane County.